INTERVIEW WITH RAPHAËL BOUVIER

Exhibition view Fondation Beyeler: Henri Matisse, Nu bleu I, 1952, Papers painted with gouache and cut out on paper on canvas, 106.3 x 78.0 cm, Beyeler Museum AG, Riehen, Fondation Beyeler, Riehen/Basel, Sammlung Beyeler, © Succession H. Matisse / 2024, ProLitteris, Zürich;  Henri Matisse Nu bleu, la grenouille, 1952, Papers painted with gouache and cut out on paper on canvas, 150.3 x 142.8 x 11.0 cm, Beyeler Museum AG, Riehen, Fondation Beyeler, Riehen/Basel, Sammlung Beyeler, © Succession H. Matisse / 2024, ProLitteris, Zürich Photo: Mark Niedermann

These terms—luxury, calm, and pleasure—are central aspects of Matisse’s painting aesthetics. Particularly the theme of calm, pleasure, ease, and perhaps even luxury in a metaphorical sense as abundance. Ultimately, these terms also bring to mind the theme of the idyll and the paradisiacal mood. Matisse often seeks the idyll in his work. This is perhaps also a reason why he traveled so much. The exhibition can be understood as a journey through Matisse’s work—Matisse himself was a great traveler who, as he often emphasized, was always in search of light and color.

This search for an idyll, a terrestrial paradise, is reflected in his paintings. There are specific moments and motifs in Baudelaire’s poem that can be linked to particular paintings in the exhibition. This includes the theme of the dream. The entire poem can be understood as a dream image—as a dreamy vision of the poet imagining a journey to an idyllic, ideal world with his beloved. The dream is also a recurring theme in Matisse’s work, often implicitly or explicitly resonating throughout.

Another central theme in the poem is light and color. For Baudelaire, it’s the poetic expression of light and color, while in Matisse, it manifests in the use of color in painting. This is evident in Matisse’s landscapes as well as in his interior scenes. Baudelaire shows a great interest in interiors in his poems, which he describes briefly but poignantly—especially concerning decoration. Decoration is, of course, also an important theme in Matisse’s paintings. This also includes a certain fascination with the "Oriental". However, the term must be viewed more critically today than it was back then. Nonetheless, the "Orient" remains a theme that fascinated both Baudelaire and Matisse.

HC: On one hand, the theme of the metaphorical journey can be seen in Matisse’s engagement with light and color, but he also undertook quite literal journeys. His travels in the Mediterranean and North Africa come to mind. Is there a particular journey Matisse undertook that was especially formative for his work?

RB: Indeed, Matisse was a great traveler, which might be less known than with an artist like Gauguin, who is famous for it. But Matisse also traveled extensively and far. He was from northern France, but early on, his search for Mediterranean light became apparent. His first journeys took him to southern France. One of his first major trips was to Corsica, where he discovered the Mediterranean color palette that later became visible in his work.

His trips to Saint-Tropez, which was still a small fishing village at the time, also had a strong influence on him, but his stay in Collioure, near the Spanish border, was particularly significant. It was there, as is well known, that the revolution of color occurred, the liberation of color. One could say that the stay in Collioure was the founding moment of Fauvism—a revolution in art history where color broke free from representing objects and motifs and gained a new independence and freedom. Later, his travels to North Africa were of great importance. He first visited Algeria and later traveled to Morocco, where he encountered Islamic art and aesthetics, which were of enormous importance to him. He even said that he found "enlightenment" in the Orient. In the context of his encounters in North Africa, he discovered new artistic solutions and compositional forms. These experiences also helped him in his search for a new flatness in art and confirmed his artistic approach. It’s also interesting that during his time in Morocco, where he traveled twice and stayed for several months each time, he painted directly on-site.

Many paintings were created in Tangier, for example. Normally, Matisse would gather impressions on his travels, see objects that he sometimes purchased, and then process these impressions in his works after returning to France. Later in his life, his journey to Tahiti via the USA is also noteworthy. Matisse himself described this as the only great journey he ever undertook. He otherwise tended to describe his travels more as work stays or relocations. The trip to Tahiti in 1930, at the age of 60, was a long-held wish. There, too, he sought light again, a light in a different hemisphere. This stay is particularly remarkable because, during those three months, he didn’t paint much. He drew a little and photographed more or less successfully. It wasn’t until fifteen years later that he could incorporate these impressions into his art, especially in his cut-outs. He needed the spatial and temporal distance to process what he had experienced and seen.

HC: The book not only highlights Matisse’s travels but also critically examines his work and persona. For example, it addresses the appropriation of foreign cultures and the very masculine gaze on women. What was the reason for also addressing these aspects and pointing out that Matisse must be viewed differently today?

RB: Today, we are in a postcolonial and feminist, or even post-feminist, discourse. These new and current perspectives should definitely be incorporated into today’s consideration of artists and their works. In the case of Matisse, it is clear that he was a child of his time. He lived and worked during the French colonial era, and it is certainly no coincidence that his travels often took him to French colonies such as Algeria, Morocco, and Tahiti. These places were longed-for destinations for many French people of his time. The curiosity for foreign cultures was a phenomenon of the era, reflected in the anthropology of that time, and sparked Matisse’s interest. This made him a typical artist of classical modernism. It was mainly about distancing oneself from the conventions and traditions of academic art and exploring a new aesthetic and new body images. This search for authenticity and a new primitiveness led artists primarily to non-European art, particularly in the broad "Oriental" context. But European cultures also interested Matisse. For instance, he engaged with late medieval art, which was no longer in vogue at the time, as the strong interest in the Renaissance had pushed it into the background. He was also interested in older European cultural aesthetics, then referred to as "primitive art".

With Matisse, one could say that he often borrowed ideas from other cultures or was inspired by them, which could be seen as appropriation. However, I find the term cultural transfer to be more accurate. Matisse was a cultural traveler. He didn’t just study cultures in books or artworks, but he went to the places themselves to be inspired there. In doing so, as his statements show, he was aware of the dilemma of this situation—that he, as a European, was immersing himself in these cultures. He repeatedly emphasized that he tried to be anti-picturesque. This reflects an awareness of the problem that a European enters a non-European world with many preconceptions, stereotypes, and projections. Already in the 19th century, there was enthusiasm for the "Orient", but it was extremely idealizing and eroticizing. The clichés of the "Orient" were practically celebrated. Matisse was aware of this and therefore tried to be anti-picturesque and to avoid certain clichés. Another important point is Matisse’s gaze on the female body. The female body, often depicted as a nude, is a central theme in his work, which is also evident in the book. Matisse’s gaze on the female body is a complex and multifaceted theme. That’s why we tried to specifically highlight this theme in the catalog and were able to get the famous art historian Griselda Pollock, who is a pioneer of feminist art history, to contribute. She wrote what I think is a very interesting and illuminating text on Matisse’s gaze on the female body, which is truly insightful and quite critical.

 Exhibition view Fondation Beyeler: Henri Matisse, Les Acanthes, 1953,Papers painted with gouache and cut out on paper on canvas, Kohlezeichnung, auf weiss bemaltem Papier auf Leinwand, 311.7 x 351.8 cm, Beyeler Museum AG, Riehen, Fondation Beyeler, Riehen/Basel, Sammlung Beyeler, © Succession H. Matisse / 2024, ProLitteris, Zürich;  Henri Matisse, Nu bleu I, 1952, Papers painted with gouache and cut out on paper on canvas, 106.3 x 78.0 cm, Beyeler Museum AG, Riehen, Fondation Beyeler, Riehen/Basel, Sammlung Beyeler, © Succession H. Matisse / 2024, ProLitteris, Zürich;  Henri Matisse, Nu bleu, la grenouille, 1952, Papers painted with gouache and cut out on paper on canvas, 150.3 x 142.8 x 11.0 cm, Beyeler Museum AG, Riehen, Fondation Beyeler, Riehen/Basel, Sammlung Beyeler, © Succession H. Matisse / 2024, ProLitteris, Zürich Photo: Mark Niedermann; Book Images  © Richard Klein

HC: Is there a particular work from the exhibition that you would like to introduce to us because it is special?

RB: That’s a difficult question, but I would like to mention a work that is particularly close to my heart. It hasn’t been exhibited in Europe for over thirty years and is one of Matisse’s major works. The painting is titled Bathers with a Turtle and is a very large work from 1907/08 that belongs to the St. Louis Museum of Art in the USA. This location is perhaps less frequently visited by Europeans than places like New York or Washington. However, the painting is truly impressive, and one must see it in person to fully grasp its extreme power and presence. It could almost merit its own exhibition. In this work, Matisse’s fundamental idea, present in most of his paintings, is manifested very clearly: the principle of color intensity, the amplification of color, and the theme of reducing form and figuration. Here, Matisse seeks a new figuration, beyond the classical conventions and ideals of European art. What I find particularly interesting is the interplay of cultures that becomes apparent in this work. It is known that this painting was created after an important trip Matisse made to northern Italy in 1907.

He visited Florence, Venice, Ravenna, and especially Padua, where he saw the famous late medieval frescoes by Giotto, which left a profound impression on him. He explicitly describes this in his letters, noting that Giotto represented the pinnacle of artistic emotion for him. In this painting, you can actually feel the influence of the biblical scenes Giotto created in the so-called Arena Chapel. At the same time, the painting also shows the influence of African art, specifically African sculpture. Here, you can clearly sense the search for a connection between cultures. Since Matisse himself never traveled to Central Africa, his impressions were based on the presentations of African sculptures, such as those that took place in Paris. It becomes clear that Matisse was interested in intercultural exchange and sought commonalities between cultures.